Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
donall Posts: 1006 Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:45 am
Post by donall » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:12 pm
A couple of days ago, I was reading a newspaper article on a new computer and also discussing how brains work and payday loans. The newspaper article had nothing to do with either topic. When I went to another newspaper article, my computer had ads on the right for brain games and also VA loans. I checked my history and did not see either topic represented in the websites. Has anyone else had something similar happen to them? Please limit your responses to actual experiences and avoid political statements.
hicabob Posts: 3513 Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 5:35 pm Location: cruz
Post by hicabob » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:31 pm
Just about all laptops have a microphone, desktops generally have a microphone input into which you can plug a microphone. Programs are made which can "listen" and analyze the speech. Dr Kurzweil's company was/is known to be an innovator in "speech recognition" - hard stuff indeed. I think the likelihood that Google has taken over your laptop microphone and is analyzing the speech to serve ads is extremely remote - although it could be theoretically possible.
Topic Author
donall Posts: 1006 Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:45 am
Post by donall » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:39 pm
Thanks hicabob for your response. I'm a very level-headed person and have accepted that anything I search for will be reflected in ads in subsequent pages. This was just plain creepy. This computer has a built-in microphone that does not seem to be able to be turned off [according to a web search].
KlangFool Posts: 24146 Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm
Post by KlangFool » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:45 pm
Hi, I taped a business card over my laptop camera. You could cover your computer's microphone with something. I am a computer kind of person. I do not believe using software to turn off camera and/or microphone.donall wrote:Thanks hicabob for your response. I'm a very level-headed person and have accepted that anything I search for will be reflected in ads in subsequent pages. This was just plain creepy. This computer has a built-in microphone that does not seem to be able to be turned off [according to a web search].
KlangFool
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Post by ResearchMed » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:46 pm
In case the computer is not "listening" [and I find the idea of a microphone that can't be turned off more than a bit disturbing and, yes, creepy], here is another possibility: How often have you turned toward your computer screen after reading something or discussing something, and that topic was *not* shown in any ads? This could be a classic case of selective perception, much like someone who exclaims, "Hey look, my coat check ticket number is the same as my home address!". How often does one have two numbers [parking spot, office number, seat number, whatever] and they do NOT match?
RM
Post by Crimsontide » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:53 pm
Interesting... I have been experimenting with my tablet, repeating the same three phrases and then switching website to website, I have yet to have any ad related to any one of these three phrases show up. I would think this would be a major invasion of privacy if it were actually happening.
patrick Posts: 1937 Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:39 am Location: Mega-City One
Post by patrick » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:59 pm
Sounds more like just keying on "brain" and "loan" -- even though the adds are about different types of loans and related to brains in different ways, there's no requirement of a precise fit.
Topic Author
donall Posts: 1006 Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:45 am
Post by donall » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:02 pm
I don't ever remember this happening before on my old computer. Perhaps this has happened before but I have not noticed. So yea, I have taped over the camera and leave the computer in a spare bedroom when I don't use it.bottlecap wrote:I'm going to say coincidence, but who knows?
agent13x Posts: 90 Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:35 pm Location: Iowa
Post by agent13x » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:19 pm
I work in computer security, and I can assure you that no companies out there are using your microphone to target advertisements. They are based on your search and browsing history. Install ad-block plus on your browser and forget about em.
hicabob Posts: 3513 Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 5:35 pm Location: cruz
Post by hicabob » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:32 pm
Thinking about it ... Google now does have a "search by voice" application ...
//www.google.com/insidesearch/feat ... hrome.html
That I have seen advertised but never looked into. I would assume that a "search by voice" would elicit the same ad-serves as search-by-typing so if you "search by voice" - yes they are listening.
Mudpuppy Posts: 6860 Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:26 am Location: Sunny California
Post by Mudpuppy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:09 pm
First, I would take anything Infowars posts with a massive, massive grain of salt. The site is pretty much a conspiracy website with occasional posting of real news stories. If you haven't activated the voice features of Chrome, it isn't listening to you just to serve you ads. Even if you have activated the voice features, you have to press an icon on the screen to actually tell it to use the microphone. The rest of the time, it is not listening. Second, ads don't just depend on what sites you view or search terms you use. They depend on that plus your location, what people in your location view, what people who viewed the sites/searched the same terms as you viewed, and even what your friends view if you are logged in to your Google account. These are all potential clues to the mindset of your particular clique, which allows Google to serve ads targeted for your particular clique. And Google doesn't lose much if it gets the guess wrong and shows you something you're not really interested in.
So all this means is either your friends [if you're logged in to your Google account with Chrome] and/or people who view similar sites and use similar search terms also have brain games and loans on their minds.
socraticbogler Posts: 48 Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:37 am
Post by socraticbogler » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:47 pm
Hey donall - I can assure you that your computer can't hear you and isn't processing sound for the purposes of ad targeting.
Post by TX_TURTLE » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:03 am
I think you should test your theory. For instance, while reading another article, talk with your significant other about how much you enjoy ice cream. Next, keep reading and see if Ben and Jerry's ads pop up
Seriously, as they use to say, this is technically possible, but highly, highly unlikely. I can imagine someone hacking your computer, but not for the purpose of placing targeted ads! More likely, Google [and other ad companies] have a marketing profile that should include your age, income [range], etc., in addition, your computer stores 'cookies' that keep track of what sites you have visited. This is what they would use to place targeted ads.
Call_Me_Op Posts: 8372 Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:57 pm Location: Milky Way
Post by Call_Me_Op » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:25 am
I have noticed that the Youtube search engine is very smart - to the point that it's frightening. Often, if I enter the first word of a phrase in a song, the song will come up in the search box. Google seems to have similar capabilities. Almost seem to know what you're thinking.
Best regards, -Op | | "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein
SHB Posts: 112 Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:28 am
Post by SHB » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:30 am
In case you use Chrome, as long as you are logged in, anything you search for on other Chrome browsers or an android phone will influence the ads that pop up. Its not computer specific for Chrome, its account specific.
The Wizard Posts: 13356 Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:45 pm Location: Reading, MA
Post by The Wizard » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:38 am
You have to be somewhat naive to really believe this. I explicitly use google voice features on my smartphone all the time, to find the nearest Burger King, for example.socraticbogler wrote:Hey donall - I can assure you that your computer can't hear you and isn't processing sound for the purposes of ad targeting.
If you're saying it's technically impossible for a virus application to use your computer's audio input capability for devious purposes, I would have to disagree...
Attempted new signature...
rbrown599 Posts: 52 Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:56 am
Post by rbrown599 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:18 am
Actuality, the virus already exists.The Wizard wrote:
You have to be somewhat naive to really believe this. I explicitly use google voice features on my smartphone all the time, to find the nearest Burger King, for example.socraticbogler wrote:Hey donall - I can assure you that your computer can't hear you and isn't processing sound for the purposes of ad targeting.
If you're saying it's technically impossible for a virus application to use your computer's audio input capability for devious purposes, I would have to disagree...
//arstechnica.com/security/2013/10 ... s-airgaps/
Quite a long [but interesting] article on the "badBIOS" malware. The tl:dr version: it's a virus that spreads to other computers by using inaudible pitched noise from one computer's speakers to another computer's microphone.
Mudpuppy Posts: 6860 Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:26 am Location: Sunny California
Post by Mudpuppy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:15 pm
The reality is even more scary [for some]: you aren't thinking uniquely.Call_Me_Op wrote:I have noticed that the Youtube search engine is very smart - to the point that it's frightening. Often, if I enter the first word of a phrase in a song, the song will come up in the search box. Google seems to have similar capabilities. Almost seem to know what you're thinking.
Google/YouTube only "know" the most likely auto-completes because many other people typed something similar before you did. My most frustrating Google searches are when I want an uncommon variant of a common search [e.g. when my cat broke a pane of window glass and I searched for window repair and kept getting window replacement links instead of repair links, since replacement is more popular than repair these days so Google just swaps those two concepts around].
autonomy Posts: 334 Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:22 pm
Post by autonomy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:53 pm
First of all, I wouldn't trust anything from infowars or Alex Jones, as they are well-known conspiracy nuts. Second, websites can't just start using your microphone without your permission, the browser will prompt you to for permission. Try this on google.com by clicking in the microphone in the search bar. Third, Youtube autocomplete will first show you results from your search history, which is going to be very specific and very limited, and then results from most common searches by users. That's how it can give you a suggestions for only 3-4 characters of a search.Fourth, it is theoretically possible for a virus to be using your microphone, but doing natural language processing just to show you ads is not the most efficient approach, scraping your search history is much easier. In addition, a malware author would have a much bigger payday by stealing your login information and using/selling it rather than figuring out what ads are relevant.
Post by ogd » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:02 pm
No, the computer is not listening to you. As other have mentioned, you need to explicitly start voice recording apps or websites. Besides, it would be a very cost ineffective method to look for ad leads, speech processing is expensive and imprecise, and odds are you're going to soon be typing into a search engine anyway. ...Which, btw, is probably what happened, a search somewhere else that you don't remember. Searches can be tied back to you by account or IP address.donall wrote:A couple of days ago, I was reading a newspaper article on a new computer and also discussing how brains work and payday loans. The newspaper article had nothing to do with either topic. When I went to another newspaper article, my computer had ads on the right for brain games and also VA loans. I checked my history and did not see either topic represented in the websites. Has anyone else had something similar happen to them? Please limit your responses to actual experiences and avoid political statements.
The virus is theorized to use the noise to communicate between already infected computers, much like a modem. Not to infect new ones. While many exploits exist where data that was not supposed to be code is packaged in a way that tricks the computer into executing it, it's unheard of for such data to come from an uncompromised sensor regardless of what that sensor was measuring, because the sensor will package it properly. So for example, while it's conceivable that I can craft an MP3 file that attacks a poorly written music player, I can't for the life of me imagine crafting a sound wave that does the same when encoded by a system I don't control. The difference is having control over the data container, as opposed to the raw data.rbrown599 wrote: Actuality, the virus already exists.
//arstechnica.com/security/2013/10 ... s-airgaps/
Quite a long [but interesting] article on the "badBIOS" malware. The tl:dr version: it's a virus that spreads to other computers by using inaudible pitched noise from one computer's speakers to another computer's microphone.
Jeff Albertson Posts: 904 Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:11 pm Location: Springfield
Post by Jeff Albertson » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:28 pm
Exactly, what is the likelihood Google and Dr Kurzweil would ever get together? Oh, wait - //blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/12/14/ ... body&ifp=0hicabob wrote:Just about all laptops have a microphone, desktops generally have a microphone input into which you can plug a microphone. Programs are made which can "listen" and analyze the speech. Dr Kurzweil's company was/is known to be an innovator in "speech recognition" - hard stuff indeed. I think the likelihood that Google has taken over your laptop microphone and is analyzing the speech to serve ads is extremely remote - although it could be theoretically possible.
leonard Posts: 5993 Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:56 am
Post by leonard » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:47 pm
Test it. Say "Find Gary Busey" to your computer very loudly, several times. See what happens after that.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
agent13x Posts: 90 Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:35 pm Location: Iowa
Post by agent13x » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:55 pm
We're not talking about a malicious virus here. We're talking about advertising through "reputable" providers like Google. So yes, there is a possibility that malware can listen to your microphone, but again it's not something that ad agencies are doing. This would probably cross the line into lawsuit territory.rbrown599 wrote:
Actuality, the virus already exists.The Wizard wrote:
You have to be somewhat naive to really believe this. I explicitly use google voice features on my smartphone all the time, to find the nearest Burger King, for example.socraticbogler wrote:Hey donall - I can assure you that your computer can't hear you and isn't processing sound for the purposes of ad targeting.
If you're saying it's technically impossible for a virus application to use your computer's audio input capability for devious purposes, I would have to disagree...
//arstechnica.com/security/2013/10 ... s-airgaps/
Quite a long [but interesting] article on the "badBIOS" malware. The tl:dr version: it's a virus that spreads to other computers by using inaudible pitched noise from one computer's speakers to another computer's microphone.
Post by LH » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:24 am
Heck yeah, it's not like all your emails are stored and searchable by people you don't know, forever. No way that's going on. There is a fundamental respect for your privacy, period. So do not worry : P Heh, that said its more likely it had nothing to do with computer listening to you Siri like, likely a past search or something.agent13x wrote:I work in computer security, and I can assure you that no companies out there are using your microphone to target advertisements. They are based on your search and browsing history. Install ad-block plus on your browser and forget about em.
Get ccleaner from cnet.com, wipe near everything off your computer cookie and history wise.
111 Posts: 211 Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:20 am
Post by 111 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:46 am
I would say that while it is technically possible, it is unlikely. They definitely target ads based on email and almost definitely on voice communications like Skype, Google Voice, etc... But, I don't think that they would monitor random audio.
keanwood Posts: 82 Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:28 pm
Post by keanwood » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:27 pm
While the chance is super low that your computer is listening to you, if you are worried about it you could always disable the microphone in 'device manager' which you can find in 'control panel'
--keanwood
Spend half of your money: for you may die, save half of your money: for you may live.
dl7848 Posts: 440 Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:46 am
Post by dl7848 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:28 pm
This article in "Wired" magazine offers some suggestions both for covering up webcams and temporarily disabling microphones. Excerpt:
Sadly, covering your camera still won’t prevent spies, intruders and even web sites and phone apps from surreptitiously turning on the internal microphone on your computer or mobile phone, computer, or VoIP phone and listening in on conversations.
Muting the mic won’t work, since it’s possible for an intruder to unmute it. Your best defense is probably to insert a dummy plug into the microphone jack to prevent sound from being picked up by the internal mic. You can create a dummy plug by simply cutting off the unneeded portion of an old microphone plug. This won’t prevent someone from listening to your conversations when you need the mic, such as when using Skype, but it will at least thwart them from using the microphone on their own without you knowing.
Post by wshang » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:37 pm
Very surprised by the answers proffered. Isn't this old news? If the heartbleed virus has taught us anything, it is "if anything that can be exploited, it will be."
//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... cBook.html
//www.globalresearch.ca/big-brothe ... ng/5361069Burglary victim remotely controls his stolen laptop to photograph thief - and then hands image to police who arrest him
They wouldn't necessarily learn anything by putting a webcam in my bathroom, but just the same, I'd rather not let that happen.We noted in June that the single most important thing you can do to protect yourself from government spying is to realize that the NSA can turn on your cellphone or laptop’s videocamera and microphone without you knowing.
Post by FelixTheCat » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:42 am
I have noticed my ads change based on my internet searches. When I search for cars, more car ads appear.
Felix is a wonderful, wonderful cat.
Post by ResearchMed » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:51 am
Oh, great. As if I weren't paranoid enough already!dl7848 wrote:This article in "Wired" magazine offers some suggestions both for covering up webcams and temporarily disabling microphones. Excerpt:
Sadly, covering your camera still won’t prevent spies, intruders and even web sites and phone apps from surreptitiously turning on the internal microphone on your computer or mobile phone, computer, or VoIP phone and listening in on conversations.
Muting the mic won’t work, since it’s possible for an intruder to unmute it. Your best defense is probably to insert a dummy plug into the microphone jack to prevent sound from being picked up by the internal mic. You can create a dummy plug by simply cutting off the unneeded portion of an old microphone plug. This won’t prevent someone from listening to your conversations when you need the mic, such as when using Skype, but it will at least thwart them from using the microphone on their own without you knowing.
[And don't forget, Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you
RM
KyleAAA Posts: 9058 Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm Contact:
Post by KyleAAA » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:55 am
Have you at any point logged into a google account on that computer? If so, there's your answer: they have a profile on you that isn't tied to any one computer.
But yes, it's technically possible. But since an astronomically more likely explanation exists and since there is absolutely positively no way a company like Google could ever get away with doing this, I wouldn't jump to conclusions.
Last edited by KyleAAA on Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post by stratton » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:56 am
The original poster has a real problem if this comes from his computer... "donall, I can't let you do that."
Paul
...and then Buffy staked Edward. The end.
Post by ogd » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:59 am
Yes -- but he was doing this to recover a $1000 laptop [perhaps more due to personal value], and it was easy enough for him to get in. It simply isn't cost effective to do any of this, manual or automated, just to deliver an ad valued at much less than a penny.wshang wrote:Very surprised by the answers proffered. Isn't this old news? If the heartbleed virus has taught us anything, it is "if anything that can be exploited, it will be."
//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... cBook.html
Burglary victim remotely controls his stolen laptop to photograph thief - and then hands image to police who arrest him
Now that article is just paranoia, really. One might as well wear a tinfoil hat.wshang wrote://www.globalresearch.ca/big-brothe ... ng/5361069
They wouldn't necessarily learn anything by putting a webcam in my bathroom, but just the same, I'd rather not let that happen.We noted in June that the single most important thing you can do to protect yourself from government spying is to realize that the NSA can turn on your cellphone or laptop’s videocamera and microphone without you knowing.
Once again, we're talking about a very expensive way to monitor what is usually a very boring image and dialogue. As opposed to those juicy, easily searchable emails, texts and phone location data.
Post by wshang » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:42 pm
Yes, yes, I agree, I think it much better "they" spy on Diane Feinstein and Angela Merkel rather than me. Trust the system. That J. Edgar Hoover, they only made one of them, and I can't imagine someone like him getting into power and using the levers of targeted surveillance. Seriously though even though the economic argument for broad application does not makes sense, against targeted individuals it does:ogd wrote:Now that article is just paranoia, really. One might as well wear a tinfoil hat.
Once again, we're talking about a very expensive way to monitor what is usually a very boring image and dialogue. As opposed to those juicy, easily searchable emails, texts and phone location data.
The problem with this kind of capability is we get cases such as Jewel versus NSA dismissed out of court because of "lack of legal" standing. It becomes a circular argument when the NSA claims state secrets privilege. The net result is individuals cannot view the evidence against them. It has been increasingly clear this kind of technology has been used to apprehend individuals and a secondary evidentiary trail subsequently created - a violation of our ability to confront our accuser.
dl7848 Posts: 440 Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:46 am
Post by dl7848 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:12 pm
There are bad apples that work at any company, so if someone could use tools available at work to spy on a girlfriend, or other target, they could do it. But would somebody like that deliver ads to their girlfriend [or otehr spying target]?KyleAAA wrote:
But yes, it's technically possible. But since an astronomically more likely explanation exists and since there is absolutely positively no way a company like Google could ever get away with doing this, I wouldn't jump to conclusions.
Post by ogd » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:20 pm
So then, it's worth focusing on the things that actually make a difference, transparency and balance, rather than putting a post-it on your camera, which is a variant of "security theater": something visible that we feel we can control, but in reality is one of the least likely avenues of damage as opposed to the myriad of other ways we can be tracked. Vote, blog and write to rein in this stuff, and my pet peeve, do not allow fear of terrorism or crime or anything to let us become a CCTV society like the British.wshang wrote:Yes, yes, I agree, I think it much better "they" spy on Diane Feinstein and Angela Merkel rather than me. Trust the system. That J. Edgar Hoover, they only made one of them, and I can't imagine someone like him getting into power and using the levers of targeted surveillance. Seriously though even though the economic argument for broad application does not makes sense, against targeted individuals it does:
The problem with this kind of capability is we get cases such as Jewel versus NSA dismissed out of court because of "lack of legal" standing. It becomes a circular argument when the NSA claims state secrets privilege. The net result is individuals cannot view the evidence against them. It has been increasingly clear this kind of technology has been used to apprehend individuals and a secondary evidentiary trail subsequently created - a violation of our ability to confront our accuser.
dl7848 Posts: 440 Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:46 am
Post by dl7848 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:53 pm
[Removed -- probably straying too far off topic]
Last edited by dl7848 on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
patrick Posts: 1937 Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:39 am Location: Mega-City One
Post by patrick » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:30 pm
If you are worried that the next J Edgar Hoover is going to look through old recordings the NSA secretly from your webcam when you didn't even know it was turned on to find incriminating evidence on you, there is something else you should be more worried about. The next J Edgar Hoover will more likely take the easy road instead, and look for incriminating statements by you on the Internet, for instance on bogleheads.org! Bulk webcam hacking has technical problems and which there is no indication the NSA is doing so. Bulk communications monitoring, however, is more plausible and documented, so there is a good chance the NSA will still have a copy of your incriminating posts even after they get deleted by the board administrators for being political.dl7848 wrote:Speaking of J. Edgar Hoover, it's interesting to note that even as recent as the pre-Clinton era, Government employess in certain agencies were required to take polygraphs to insure they weren't of the "wrong" sexual orientation. It's easy to believe the Government looks out for our best interests, but just remembering how laws like that were on the book just a few short years ago gives one pause. That's why I say to people who pooh-pooh privacy and say "You must have something to hide" that we never know ahead of time what might be considered illegal or might result in the denial of a job.
dl7848 Posts: 440 Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:46 am
Post by dl7848 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:51 pm
[More straying off topic]
Last edited by dl7848 on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
clevername Posts: 285 Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:13 pm Location: FL
Post by clevername » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:07 pm
Yes, and it talks about you with your cell phone and microwave behind your back.donall wrote:Can my computer hear me?
Mudpuppy Posts: 6860 Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:26 am Location: Sunny California
Post by Mudpuppy » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:55 am
Politics aside [and folks going on about the government are traipsing close to the line on that forum rule] and getting back to the actual original question, there just isn't any profit motive in accessing the computer microphone to deliver ads. It is technically feasible, but there are far cheaper and more effective methods for targeted advertisement than going all blackhat on someone's microphone.
Post by ResearchMed » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:37 am
We've got a small private school right across the street. One of our concerns is that it would probably be a neat trick for a couple of students to show other students what they were able to hack into nearby.... We'd rather not be part of an actual or attempted computer science "project".
RM
Mudpuppy Posts: 6860 Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:26 am Location: Sunny California
Post by Mudpuppy » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:27 pm
No such project would ever be sanctioned by an ethical computer science faculty member. If students did that on their own, they would be violating a long list of school rules and "ethical hacking" guidelines. Any cyber security instructor that doesn't drill ethics into the heads of their students is doing their students a great disservice, since law enforcement does not "look the other way" when such breaches are committed by minors anymore.ResearchMed wrote:We've got a small private school right across the street. One of our concerns is that it would probably be a neat trick for a couple of students to show other students what they were able to hack into nearby.... We'd rather not be part of an actual or attempted computer science "project".
RM
I'm not saying it wouldn't happen [since kids seem to ignore a great deal of what adults tell them], but it wouldn't be authorized or ethical if it did happen. And it could happen in an unauthorized and unethical fashion even if you didn't have a private school across the street.
Post by ResearchMed » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:47 pm
It's your last sentence that captures the issue. OBVIOUSLY it wouldn't be "sanctioned" by any faculty members! But teens can be a very creative bunch. Who knows what new tech startup might develop at any time, anywhere. Those are usually the mavericks, of one type or another, almost by definition. And tinkering around... that's sometimes called "practice". It may lead to great things, good things, or "other" things... They can all bring various types of "bragging rights", not all of them meant for the ears of the faculty or other authorities. The part about the school across the street is just the rather immediate proximity and thus perhaps kept "in mind", etc.Mudpuppy wrote:
No such project would ever be sanctioned by an ethical computer science faculty member. If students did that on their own, they would be violating a long list of school rules and "ethical hacking" guidelines. Any cyber security instructor that doesn't drill ethics into the heads of their students is doing their students a great disservice, since law enforcement does not "look the other way" when such breaches are committed by minors anymore.ResearchMed wrote:We've got a small private school right across the street. One of our concerns is that it would probably be a neat trick for a couple of students to show other students what they were able to hack into nearby.... We'd rather not be part of an actual or attempted computer science "project".
RM
I'm not saying it wouldn't happen [since kids seem to ignore a great deal of what adults tell them], but it wouldn't be authorized or ethical if it did happen. And it could happen in an unauthorized and unethical fashion even if you didn't have a private school across the street.
RM